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	<title>Comments on: Fractions</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.sunclipse.org/?feed=rss2&#038;p=506" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506</link>
	<description>Now living at http://scienceblogs.com/sunclipse/</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 06:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Blake Stacey</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35834</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake Stacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35834</guid>
		<description>It's funny, but until this topic came up, I hadn't really thought about how seldom I actually use a calculator!  When paying the bill at a restaurant, I can compute the tip in my head (the challenge arises when multiple people have to pool money and nobody has quite the right amount of cash. . .).  I used a calculator in high school, but it died while I was at university and I never bothered to buy a replacement:  homework and exam problems had become about the manipulation of &lt;i&gt;symbols,&lt;/i&gt; while the bits of arithmetic which were still necessary could be done on scratch paper.

If a whole lot of number-crunching is needed, I'll bet euros to dollars you're on a computer anyway, and understanding the &lt;i&gt;symbolic&lt;/i&gt; manipulations of a computer language is, again, essential.

A "no calculators" rule sounds to me like slapping a Band-Aid on the problem, one which won't stick very well anyway.  My hunch is that we should be transitioning the whole curriculum over to problems where &lt;i&gt;calculators just aren't that helpful.&lt;/i&gt;  That said, all the different ways one can destroy calculators &#8212; &lt;a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7216176902384004391" rel="nofollow"&gt;liquid nitrogen&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5830486130748786389" rel="nofollow"&gt;trebuchet&lt;/a&gt;, etc. &#8212; might themselves offer "teachable moments."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny, but until this topic came up, I hadn&#8217;t really thought about how seldom I actually use a calculator!  When paying the bill at a restaurant, I can compute the tip in my head (the challenge arises when multiple people have to pool money and nobody has quite the right amount of cash. . .).  I used a calculator in high school, but it died while I was at university and I never bothered to buy a replacement:  homework and exam problems had become about the manipulation of <i>symbols,</i> while the bits of arithmetic which were still necessary could be done on scratch paper.</p>
<p>If a whole lot of number-crunching is needed, I&#8217;ll bet euros to dollars you&#8217;re on a computer anyway, and understanding the <i>symbolic</i> manipulations of a computer language is, again, essential.</p>
<p>A &#8220;no calculators&#8221; rule sounds to me like slapping a Band-Aid on the problem, one which won&#8217;t stick very well anyway.  My hunch is that we should be transitioning the whole curriculum over to problems where <i>calculators just aren&#8217;t that helpful.</i>  That said, all the different ways one can destroy calculators &mdash; <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7216176902384004391" rel="nofollow">liquid nitrogen</a>, <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5830486130748786389" rel="nofollow">trebuchet</a>, etc. &mdash; might themselves offer &#8220;teachable moments.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Calculus Teacher</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35831</link>
		<dc:creator>Calculus Teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35831</guid>
		<description>BaldApe said: "I have a two stage solution: First, require that all teachers, including pre-k, have a year of calculus and a year of physics. Second, take all of the calculators in the elementary schools and middle schools and beat them into little pieces."



I like these ideas.  Too often teachers of lower level mathematics courses ASSUME that they are helping prepare students for higher level courses by teaching them calculator skills.  I have addressed this issue with some of them in the past and they tell me I am the one that needs to change.  What is wrong with these people?  They are creating "happy idiots" who know very little mathematics when they get to my classes and are now required to math without a calculator and learn the skills that they were not taught when they should have been.   Maybe all math teachers should also be required to teach a year of Calculus so that they know where the students are heading.  After this type of experience they may not be as quick to substitute the calcuator for skills they should be teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BaldApe said: &#8220;I have a two stage solution: First, require that all teachers, including pre-k, have a year of calculus and a year of physics. Second, take all of the calculators in the elementary schools and middle schools and beat them into little pieces.&#8221;</p>
<p>I like these ideas.  Too often teachers of lower level mathematics courses ASSUME that they are helping prepare students for higher level courses by teaching them calculator skills.  I have addressed this issue with some of them in the past and they tell me I am the one that needs to change.  What is wrong with these people?  They are creating &#8220;happy idiots&#8221; who know very little mathematics when they get to my classes and are now required to math without a calculator and learn the skills that they were not taught when they should have been.   Maybe all math teachers should also be required to teach a year of Calculus so that they know where the students are heading.  After this type of experience they may not be as quick to substitute the calcuator for skills they should be teaching.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake Stacey</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35553</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake Stacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35553</guid>
		<description>I think I was aiming for the understatement.  As far as I can tell, DeTurck wants to teach only decimals, and as you say, his plan doesn't let one say what a decimal like 1.5 means.

It's probably not worth your time to read a whole lot about it &#8212; heck, I suppose I should really be working on &lt;a href="http://www.eurekajournalwatch.org" rel="nofollow"&gt;Eureka&lt;/a&gt; instead of writing blog posts like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I was aiming for the understatement.  As far as I can tell, DeTurck wants to teach only decimals, and as you say, his plan doesn&#8217;t let one say what a decimal like 1.5 means.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably not worth your time to read a whole lot about it &mdash; heck, I suppose I should really be working on <a href="http://www.eurekajournalwatch.org" rel="nofollow">Eureka</a> instead of writing blog posts like this.</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35541</link>
		<dc:creator>John Baez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 07:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35541</guid>
		<description>Blake writes:

&lt;blockquote&gt;

the only thing I can see that abolishing fractions will do is make teaching division harder.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is this a joke?  At the very least, it seems like quite an understatement.  It seems abolishing fractions means abolishing division as well.   After all, what's the difference between the fraction 3/2 and 3 divided by 2? 

Is Dennis DeTurck suggesting that we restrict attention to integers?  Or maybe he accepts decimals like 1.5, but thinks we shouldn't explain what they mean?

I haven't had time to read his opinions, and I'm not sure I should find time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake writes:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>the only thing I can see that abolishing fractions will do is make teaching division harder.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Is this a joke?  At the very least, it seems like quite an understatement.  It seems abolishing fractions means abolishing division as well.   After all, what&#8217;s the difference between the fraction 3/2 and 3 divided by 2? </p>
<p>Is Dennis DeTurck suggesting that we restrict attention to integers?  Or maybe he accepts decimals like 1.5, but thinks we shouldn&#8217;t explain what they mean?</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t had time to read his opinions, and I&#8217;m not sure I should find time.</p>
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		<title>By: Your mother</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35218</link>
		<dc:creator>Your mother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35218</guid>
		<description>What really upsets me is that there is now an "Electronic Banking Monopoly" game . . . uses a debit card rather than cash.  That is just so WRONG. Paying for properties and making change out of the bank taught GENERATIONS of children how to add and subtract without a piece of paper.  

And yes, I did learn how to take square roots by hand . . . in elementary school if you can believe it (of course it was an extension of all that long division training that we did)  . . . in the 1960s . . . in the time before calculators and when we were taught all sorts of tricks for mental math.  Anecdote . . . we gave your maternal grandfather a little five function calculator back in the late 70s.  It came with a little book of "calculator tricks you can do."  He would check the calculator's answers . . . didn't trust it.  Of course, this is the man who divided fractions in his head.  You have a lot of Grandma Stacey in you . . . but a bunch of Grandad Chilton, too.  

I sat in an Advanced Project Management class last fall and watched people yank out calculators to do some "earned value" problems (simple algebra equation stuff) and we're giving ludicrous answers (magnitudes off) because of decimal issues.  These are folks with college degrees . . . managing projects.  So scary.  There was no "intuitiveness."  I didn't even take a calculator to class and just turned my paper over and did the multiplication and division the old way.  I could even "simplify" before I started my division!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What really upsets me is that there is now an &#8220;Electronic Banking Monopoly&#8221; game . . . uses a debit card rather than cash.  That is just so WRONG. Paying for properties and making change out of the bank taught GENERATIONS of children how to add and subtract without a piece of paper.  </p>
<p>And yes, I did learn how to take square roots by hand . . . in elementary school if you can believe it (of course it was an extension of all that long division training that we did)  . . . in the 1960s . . . in the time before calculators and when we were taught all sorts of tricks for mental math.  Anecdote . . . we gave your maternal grandfather a little five function calculator back in the late 70s.  It came with a little book of &#8220;calculator tricks you can do.&#8221;  He would check the calculator&#8217;s answers . . . didn&#8217;t trust it.  Of course, this is the man who divided fractions in his head.  You have a lot of Grandma Stacey in you . . . but a bunch of Grandad Chilton, too.  </p>
<p>I sat in an Advanced Project Management class last fall and watched people yank out calculators to do some &#8220;earned value&#8221; problems (simple algebra equation stuff) and we&#8217;re giving ludicrous answers (magnitudes off) because of decimal issues.  These are folks with college degrees . . . managing projects.  So scary.  There was no &#8220;intuitiveness.&#8221;  I didn&#8217;t even take a calculator to class and just turned my paper over and did the multiplication and division the old way.  I could even &#8220;simplify&#8221; before I started my division!</p>
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		<title>By: BaldApe</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35206</link>
		<dc:creator>BaldApe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35206</guid>
		<description>The key is, are we trying to get students to &lt;em&gt;understand&lt;/em&gt; or just to get answers?

I was astonished that my daughter, in 6th grade, didn't understand what the decimal places mean, IOW powers of ten. How can you understand math if you don't know what the numbers mean?

I teach low-level chemistry. When I do percent composition, the kids don't understand that "percent" means the same as "parts per hundred." They plug numbers into the calculators and get an answer, and have no idea whether it it makes sense. They will tell me that a copper containing compound is 450% copper, and don't realize that is a ridiculous answer.

I think that is one of the worst aspects of focusing on year-end testing. The emphasis on getting an answer rather than understanding.

I have a two stage solution: First, require that all teachers, including pre-k, have a year of calculus and a year of physics. Second, take all of the calculators in the elementary schools and middle schools and beat them into little pieces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The key is, are we trying to get students to <em>understand</em> or just to get answers?</p>
<p>I was astonished that my daughter, in 6th grade, didn&#8217;t understand what the decimal places mean, IOW powers of ten. How can you understand math if you don&#8217;t know what the numbers mean?</p>
<p>I teach low-level chemistry. When I do percent composition, the kids don&#8217;t understand that &#8220;percent&#8221; means the same as &#8220;parts per hundred.&#8221; They plug numbers into the calculators and get an answer, and have no idea whether it it makes sense. They will tell me that a copper containing compound is 450% copper, and don&#8217;t realize that is a ridiculous answer.</p>
<p>I think that is one of the worst aspects of focusing on year-end testing. The emphasis on getting an answer rather than understanding.</p>
<p>I have a two stage solution: First, require that all teachers, including pre-k, have a year of calculus and a year of physics. Second, take all of the calculators in the elementary schools and middle schools and beat them into little pieces.</p>
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		<title>By: Escuerd</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35177</link>
		<dc:creator>Escuerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 01:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35177</guid>
		<description>I'd like to know the details of what Professor DeTurck would like to do instead.  I can't think of any way to make eliminating fractions a viable way to teach math.

I tried looking at his web-page, but couldn't seem to find anything on this topic.  I'd like to at least see some context for this bizarre idea that might make it seem even a little less insane.

One math professor at my school has been quoted as saying
"If you don't know how to add fractions, you don't know how to think."

I don't know what the context was exactly, but I do know he's an outspoken critic of many of the math education reform proposals that have come about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to know the details of what Professor DeTurck would like to do instead.  I can&#8217;t think of any way to make eliminating fractions a viable way to teach math.</p>
<p>I tried looking at his web-page, but couldn&#8217;t seem to find anything on this topic.  I&#8217;d like to at least see some context for this bizarre idea that might make it seem even a little less insane.</p>
<p>One math professor at my school has been quoted as saying<br />
&#8220;If you don&#8217;t know how to add fractions, you don&#8217;t know how to think.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what the context was exactly, but I do know he&#8217;s an outspoken critic of many of the math education reform proposals that have come about.</p>
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		<title>By: Starhawk Laughingsun</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35175</link>
		<dc:creator>Starhawk Laughingsun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 01:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35175</guid>
		<description>Actually I did learn how to take square roots by hand with an algorithm that resembled division. Perhaps I had a good teacher or perhaps it is just because I belong to the generation that latter some of us at least had to learn how to use a slide rule. But regardless years latter I had forgotten it and  reconstructed it taking advantage of the Binomial Theorem, eliminating all but the numbers you end up with the same algorithm I was taught in grade school. But the algebra reveals that this algorithm can be trivially generalized to nth order roots.

Ain't math fun. lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I did learn how to take square roots by hand with an algorithm that resembled division. Perhaps I had a good teacher or perhaps it is just because I belong to the generation that latter some of us at least had to learn how to use a slide rule. But regardless years latter I had forgotten it and  reconstructed it taking advantage of the Binomial Theorem, eliminating all but the numbers you end up with the same algorithm I was taught in grade school. But the algebra reveals that this algorithm can be trivially generalized to nth order roots.</p>
<p>Ain&#8217;t math fun. lol</p>
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		<title>By: Ula</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35171</link>
		<dc:creator>Ula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35171</guid>
		<description>Are you saying computer science in high school was a waste of time!?  I am deeply and permanently offended by such an accusation.  I never would've been able to come up with a computer program that happened to store all of Kim and my inside jokes that year had it not been for the infinite wisdom of what's her face (Naussauc?  Nosack?  I remember that's how she pronounced it).  
On another note, I think I've forgotten everything I ever learned about math except simple arithmetic.  And even that I fuck up sometimes.  Go go law school!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you saying computer science in high school was a waste of time!?  I am deeply and permanently offended by such an accusation.  I never would&#8217;ve been able to come up with a computer program that happened to store all of Kim and my inside jokes that year had it not been for the infinite wisdom of what&#8217;s her face (Naussauc?  Nosack?  I remember that&#8217;s how she pronounced it).<br />
On another note, I think I&#8217;ve forgotten everything I ever learned about math except simple arithmetic.  And even that I fuck up sometimes.  Go go law school!</p>
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		<title>By: The days it&#8217;s worth it &#171; The Unapologetic Mathematician</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35169</link>
		<dc:creator>The days it&#8217;s worth it &#171; The Unapologetic Mathematician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35169</guid>
		<description>[...] love to comment on, but I&#8217;d prefer not to while applications are open. I&#8217;ll let Blake handle it, with no comment on whether I agree or disagree with him, and let you make up your own [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] love to comment on, but I&#8217;d prefer not to while applications are open. I&#8217;ll let Blake handle it, with no comment on whether I agree or disagree with him, and let you make up your own [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35166</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35166</guid>
		<description>You mean like &lt;a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCy-Bb8gz5U" rel="nofollow"&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;, Ben?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mean like <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCy-Bb8gz5U" rel="nofollow">this</a>, Ben?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark C. Chu-Carroll</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35149</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark C. Chu-Carroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35149</guid>
		<description>I was taught to do square roots by hand... But as usual for me, I learned it from my father. I rarely learned anything about math in school - my dad always taught it to me for fun long before the school got around to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was taught to do square roots by hand&#8230; But as usual for me, I learned it from my father. I rarely learned anything about math in school - my dad always taught it to me for fun long before the school got around to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35142</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35142</guid>
		<description>Come on down! We're slashing prices!...we just have no idea by how much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come on down! We&#8217;re slashing prices!&#8230;we just have no idea by how much.</p>
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		<title>By: Eamon Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35138</link>
		<dc:creator>Eamon Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=506#comment-35138</guid>
		<description>I was taught to extract sqrt by hand. Of course, this was c.1970.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was taught to extract sqrt by hand. Of course, this was c.1970.</p>
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